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Talk:Roger van der Weide
Hullo Mr. Van Der Weide - *takes one of your hands into both of hers and applies a polite but enthusiatic handshake* Wanted to say a sincere thanks very much for your entire Sonic Dissected series over on Youtube. Appreciate the time, effort and thought that went into these shows. Especially appreciate the focus being more on the storytelling mechanics. Was truly a pleasant and refreshing surprise to come across an intelligent in-depth conversation on these subjects, given the unfortunately less than pleasant reputation that the online sonic fandom has earned for itself. Have not played all the Sonic games but - thanks to my relatives and also to the internet - I have seen most of them played, watched/read most of the in-game cutscenes and just generally come to care for the characters. So... Thank you. Really. Because even though I've always liked - and still do like - all of the characters... and can usually tolerate the gameplay... Something about the whole franchise did always seem off to me and now I know what. You've given me the words, the evidence and the courage to define exactly what has always kinda bugged me about the series. I knew that the storytelling in the games was a bit unbalanced but guess that I'd never consciously admitted just how broken - or absent - the mechanics were. Therefore the sheer amount of legit points that you make about why the story does not work, case by case, is both much appreciated and disturbing. Sonics world and the characters therein clearly have so much potential... And after all these years and experiments, to be shown that the company still acts like it has no real idea what to do with any of them... It's incredibly sad. If Sega does not hire you outright then they should at least hire someone to listen to you and take detailed notes. I also wanted to mention... *voice trails off, eyes slowly slide towards the right and then her eyes grow wider* Oh..my...GOSH... *dramatic pointing at Luke* IT'S BASIL BRUSH! *insert an extreme hug of Luke here which goes just a few seconds past awkward and then she recovers and gently releases her slightly startled victim* Wow. I am surprised that I can even REMEMBER that character. Huh. *clenches then unclenches fists and looks towards feet for a moment, in an attempt to hide mild embarrassment* That was so long ago. *abruptly snaps back to cheerful mode* Anyway. Good to know that he's still working! *gives Luke a quick series of friendly pats on the shoulder* We'll have to chat later, Mister Basil! I'm sure there's a lot to get caught up on! Now then... *returns her focus to Roger, while pulling an entire tea service out of thin air. It floats there conveniently. While speaking, she hands out cups to everyone in the vicinity and pours hot tea into each and every single one of those cups in turn. After the first round of tea pouring is complete, sugar lumps are shared out from a decorative bowl with little tongs. Anyone who wants cream in their tea will have to take it up with the small polite humanoid rabbit that is gathering flowers in the background.* *From here on out, the '...' pause that I am apparently addicted to having in my speech patterns should be imagined as being filled by a concerned smile, a few sips of tea, a contented sigh and then glancing around to make sure that nobody else needs a refill - and giving their cups a refill, if they do need it.* respond but it would be so nice, just to finally have an intelligent response. Your shows have made me do some thinking and so naturally, I am now curious to know what you think. What are your theories and observations? Have you also noticed these things? Those are the kinds of answers I'm seeking. Know that your opinions are welcome as well. -Shadows Game. Sorry. Let's just get this out of the way. First, I agree with you. The 'non-human character with a gun' thing - yes, you're right. This has been done by many other characters, more than few of which are in 'kid shows' and 'kid games'. So you asked why it was a big deal. Well, for me... When I see Shadow using a gun, the act itself doesn't upset me. What upsets me is that I have no idea WHY he's bothering to use the gun. Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I understand, Shadow can outrun bullets. He can do more damage than a bullet just by using his regular attacks. In the Olympic games, at the shooting events - no problem. The characters there are following the rules of the competition because they want to win. That makes sense to me. But in Shadow the Hedgehog, if his reasoning was explained then I missed it. So all I have is theory and the theories are: A) Shadow, the alleged ultimate lifeform, has limits. His own attacks require energy hence using those attacks repeatedly would eventually tire him out. So maybe using the gun is his way of conserving energy in order to improve his odds for long-term survival and they just forgot to mention it. B) Due to amnesia, Shadow sometimes forgets his own natural attacks and so therefore has to rely on guns for defense instead. C) Shadow suffers from the same brand of overconfidence that Sonic is infected with. If he was just not really feeling threatened at all then maybe he wouldn't mind using less effective methods for eliminating any opponents. So then each battle where Shadow chooses to use the gun indicates that a "you're not even worth powering up for" type of arrogance is at work. D) Some of his opponents are using guns. So perhaps Shadow feels that using guns against them makes this competition more fair/honorable/interesting? Maybe he is trying to add insult to injury by beating opponents down with their own style of technology? E) This game is actually less about the title character and more about the company experimenting with a different style of gameplay. In other words as long as they can try to make money off it, they don't care about character continuity. or F) All of the above. -Next up is Sonic 06. I KNOW. Sorry. But... The kiss. Yeah. Sonic is dead at the time and a different species from Elise and possibly a different age and/or ageless. But apparently the kiss is something that his spirit asks for. Unless Elise was making that up and she doesn't seem to have that much imagination, so I doubt it. And maybe it's plausible that Sonic doesn't care too much about HOW he is restored to life. Maybe all that he really cares about is just being alive again - the sooner, the better. And so after I'm done cringing at the whole scene... I also have to wonder... WHY NOT? I mean... I am so very sorry but it has to be said. Sonic did just spend almost the ENTIRE game saving Elise and trying to cheer her up, didn't he? So why shouldn't they maybe have some feelings for each other after all that? And why shouldn't they both be kinda confused by those new feelings too? Yeah. New. Despite the fact that Elise is a pretty princess, there are no handsome princes or short plumbers actively seeking her affection. She has a kingdom full of random citizens and useless guards but is not shown to have any living relatives, concerned friends, protective teachers, mildly annoyed suitors or anything else. Meanwhile Sonic has been pursued frequently but openly falling for someone is, at least in the games, a little bit of a role reversal for him. Maybe neither of them are in their comfort zone, you know? They are both fictional characters and weird things happening in fiction is not so uncommon. Despite all their obvious differences and a possible fan-service fourth wall thing going on... Is Elise MEANT to represent the fandom overall or what? That would be a slight slap in the face. But again, despite their differences, why not? I don't know if the characters balance each other well enough to make the concept work but they do have a few things in common. Elise starts the game with an elemental monster sealed inside of her, Sonic is "like the wind" so basically he IS an elemental monster. Maybe both of them feel trapped by circumstances that they didn't choose and then the whole orphan thing. Still. No idea if any relationship beyond friendship would last or be meaningful for them but... Given the alternatives... If the scene could have been written differently then how should it go? Really think about this before you answer. Now imagine. Instead of the 'kiss of life', Elise lays the open palms of her hands flat on Sonics chest and the energy flows down from her, glows around his heart and he revives. How about that? Would that have been dramatic enough? Would Sonic have immediately had the energy to go super? Or would he have spent awhile groggy, disoriented and needing to recover? Would he have had a few vulnerable moments to show more emotion - surprise, guilt, confusion, embarrassment, fear, relief - instead of just 'thanks' and then confidently flying off to the next battle? Maybe the game developers didn't want to let that happen? Maybe their focus was: Sonic + pending battle = no extended weak moments allowed, no matter what. What if they had pulled a Chris Thorndyke on us and retooled the scene to focus more on Elise? So the scene starts out the same as above but now when Elise lays her hands on Sonic to reveive him, nothing happens. The energy does not flow. Her first attempt fails. We get to see her nervous and struggling to learn a new skill on short notice. She tries other methods for reviving Sonic - maybe she even lets a few of the other characters try as well - and they still don't get the result. She panics. The ghost of Sonic starts to panic and everyone else gets a chance to either express their doubts or try to inspire some confidence in her. Thus instead of being the first and only act, the kiss becomes a sort of desperate last resort. Then when it works maybe we'd even get a tiny moment where Elise is shown as being at least a smidge surprised by what she has accomplished, if not also by what she had to do to accomplish it. Would that be enough to redeem the scene? This version would have to be handled so very carefully though, to avoid becoming pure comedy. Do you think that the game company ever had the patience? They might have needed to find a way to turn 'revive Sonic' into a game level instead of a cutscene. Good writing takes time. Scenes that build drama can't always be rushed and short. You know that. Perhaps these ideas represent more effort than the game company can afford to invest in. And the game - they didn't want to make it longer, maybe. With the loading screen glitch, it was already too long for so many people. Another idea. What if Elise had needed to trade her life to have Sonic alive again? So she kisses him and instantly dies. He gets to save the day - but not her. Wouldn't this mean that Sonic gets caught in situation that's eerily similar to what they've already done with Shadow and Maria. And Knuckles and Tikal. And Tails and Cosmo. And Silver and Blaze. And... Yeah. Repeating pattern, much? But with the added burden of 'And now what is going to happen to Elise's kingdom?' So then Sonic either has to rule the kingdom or feels extra responsible for protecting it. Wouldn't that have been just too cliche? Too many consequences? And aren't you the one who said that Sega doesn't seem to like having any real consequences in their stories? Do you see what we're up against now? Imagine. What if Elise starts to lean in for the kiss and then Eggman kidnaps her yet again, finds a way to force the princess to marry him and becomes a legit king? Could that have been any less repulsive to the fanbase? Eggman is not in bad health apparently but he has got to be old enough to be at least her parent, maybe her grandparent. And so even if he had absolutely no interest in any real relationship... Even if he killed or divorced Elise right after becoming a confirmed legit king... The implications and speculations that could stem from such a course of action would mean that Eggman could probably never again be portrayed as a 'safe' cartoonish villian. And since nearly all the other Sonic characters are 'young' that sort of drastic image change would perhaps be just too much of a major obstacle for the game company to deal with going forward. And what if ANY of Sonics gathered friends/rivals/sidekicks had decided to object to the kiss? Wouldn't that be implying that their input was more important than Sonics own in this particular matter? Then what? Sonic gets to stay dead and maybe the next game will be about everyone else? Couldn't this be seen as a betrayal of their friendship/trust/respect with Sonic? How would his other friends/rivals/sidekicks react to such a bold decision? How would Elise react? And how is Sonic supposed to feel about something like this if he DOES still make it back to life somehow? This is Sega, remember? The main characters tend to avoid interacting with each other, right? That's their tradition. Yeah, maybe it would have been interesting to see - but would it have been fun to play? So... Yeah. Whatever scenario you come up with... In a game that is named after Sonic and where the game company has already had the nerve to kill him with a cheap shot from behind... Why would it have been acceptable to leave Sonic dead? If the other characters had managed to bring down the final monster without Sonic then would anyone - including the players of the game - feel that they needed him anymore? If Amy or Tails or someone had promised to try and find a way to bring Sonic back to life in the next game then wouldn't that be too much like the buy-the-next-issue style of the comics then? If Silver or Shadow had tried to prevent Sonics death by warping time yet again then would that have been too confusing for the audience to follow? And would there have been spin-off consequences for their actions? Please forgive my rambling. I've been thinking about this too much perhaps. Guess my point is this: The game wasn't great but it could have been so much worse. The kiss is a cringe-inducing scene, yes but maybe it was done this way because the kiss was easier to animate. Maybe it just was the quick fix, storywise. Mostly though, the focus needs to be on the fact that Elise brings Sonic back. Yes, it was awkward. However if any other character had revivied Sonic, would that have been any less awkward? Sure. Sonic has rescued basically all the other characters at some point or another but at least in this game, he's rescued Elise a ton. And up until this point, Elise hasn't had the courage - or much opportunity - to repay the favor, so why not give her the chance? If we deny her the chance, her value as a character drops and might never recover. And if her value drops - if we don't care about her at all - then we start caring less about the characters who have spent time with her, as well. So it ends up damaging everyone. Yeah. Maybe Silver could and should have gotten another nice 'see, I really AM a valuable addition to the cast' type of moment here but... Yeah. Still awkward. Elise is not the best character ever but truly she does not deserve all the hatred, either. At least she is used just well enough to let us get a glimpse into the other characters. Especially with Sonic but also in her moments with everyone else, Elise lets us see a side of these characters that maybe we haven't seen before. Plus, it is important to notice, Elise gets to survive the game and that's just plain amazing. Sega has a particular reputation for killing off characters whose only real purpose is story related. Hence Elise not being irreversibly dead at the end of the game is an encouraging achievement for them. Extra especially if she really IS meant to represent the fandom. My other point is: So after consideration, what truly disturbs me the most in this game is not the kiss. It's the power that the kiss represents. Reincarnating creatures is a significant skill. And any significant skill in this world, Sonic learns. So if Elise can figure out how to do this without needing to practice or study or anything... Then how long will it be before Sonic inevitably learns the skill? Are they seriously trying to put Sonic in the weird position of having the 'kiss of life' in his arsenal for future use? And will Sonic be the only one to pick up this talent or will any of the others figure it out as well? Just what the heck kind of game were they originally thinking would need to follow this one?! Uhm. I do have other questions and theories that I would be interested in discussing with you but this note is already so long. Wow. Thank you. See? Not only have you gotten me thinking, you've restored my passion for writing. More than a hundred fictional characters with unfinished stories are in your debt. My final query for now - don't worry, I will keep this short - is this: Is it really true that Omochao may represent the game company president? Or the game companys target audience? I have heard this rumor for some time but have no idea if there is any evidence in the games to support it. *After listening and taking detailed notes while you reply, she blinks a few times and puts her notebook away. Then she removes the tea cozy from the teapot, opens the teapot and peers into it, inspecting the contents with a mild frown.* Hrm. We seem to be running low. *Dangerous gleam in her eyes and sudden inexplicable robotic quality to her voice.* That is unacceptable. *She recovers.* Uhm. Thank you gentleman so very much for your valuable time. I have learned so much. I look forward to perhaps being in your company again someday but for now, you'll have to pardon me. *Grabs the teapot by the handle with one hand, slips her simple looking necklace over her head with the other hand and then twirls her necklace until the pendant transforms into a massive serrated battle axe whose blade is larger than her. She bows respectfully towards Roger, visibly resists the impulse to hug 'Basil' again then takes a step and vanishes. A few seconds later, the rest of the tea service also vanishes. Including all the cups that were still in use by anyone in the vicinity.* DoraMouse https://www.fanfiction.net/u/10586/DoraMouse